Path: spln!rex!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!gemini.tycho.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Approved: sci-military-moderated@retro.com Return-Path: mtkkburk@aol.com Delivery-Date: Sun Mar 10 05:11:25 2002 Delivery-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:11:25 -0800 for <sci-military-moderated@retro.com>; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:11:23 -0800 (PST) for <sci-military-moderated@moderators.isc.org>; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:53:18 -0500 (EST) with ESMTP id HAA07375 for <sci-military-moderated@moderators.isc.org>; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:52:43 -0500 (EST) To: <sci-military-moderated@moderators.isc.org> From: mtkkburk@aol.com (Mtkkburk) Newsgroups: sci.military.moderated Date: 10 Mar 2002 12:52:24 GMT References: <20020309223638.21276.00000575@mb-cn.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Can the M1A2 tank ford rivers like the T-72 tank? Message-ID: <20020310075224.09195.00000650@mb-cs.aol.com> Content-Length: 3308 Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Host: 402236d9.newsreader.tycho.net X-Trace: 1015794735 gemini.tycho.net 79558 205.179.181.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tycho.net Xref: spln sci.military.moderated:43392 >Jerry Miller wrote: >>The T-72 cannot deep-wade? > > In theory, they can. And when they have the time >to set up (like in training exercises), it's possible. The >problem is that to do so, they have to do several >things (and I'm probably leaving a few out): > 1. TC's snorkel fixed and sealed. (This is a problem, as > the training snorkel is a lot bigger & roomier than > the issue/combat model. The model that would be > combat used would be a lot less "user-friendly" and > I don't know if they were ever trained with. > 2. Hatches, weapons and turret ring sealed. This takes > quite a while (especially if somebody is tossed arty > at your staging area!) plus once in place, you > can't fire your weapons, move the turret or open the > hatch, or you're back to square one. > 3. Entrance & exit slopes must be just so. Constant > crossing speed must be held to, as well as bottom > surface must be of a certain type. > > What have I missed? I remember reading the AAR's on some Soviet deep fording exercises in the '80's and it was definitely a high risk operation. IIRC the training snorkel was large enough to permit the crew to escape, but the combat snorkel was just a tube. As you say, the tank must be prepped VERY carefully, and the entrance and egress points must be of a certain slope and consistancy. In training the Soviets would often lay down steel matting on the riverbed. I remember reading about one CALFX that was put on for the Soviet higher ups that was supposed to simulate a river crossing. Arty was going to prep the far bank, then BMPs would swim and take up position until tanks doing a deep ford, emerged to secure the far bank. Everything went like clockwork (as they usually do in these type of things) until the BMPs approached the far bank and discovered that the arty prep had destroyed the carefully prepared egress lanes. As a result, the BMPS were swimming in circles, many of the tanks were stuck underwater with crews trapped inside, and the Regimental Commander went into mind lock. Divers had to attach cables to the tanks to winch them out, and a number of crews died in the operation. Think about what you are asking tank crews to do: The driver can't see under water, the handling characteristics of the tank are now completely altered (remember that it is under water and is now much lighter), any movement on the steering gear (or contact with an under water obstacle) will result in a major direction change, and any perforation of the snorkel will result in water getting into the tank and likely killing the engine, and ultimately the crew. And remember that the snorkel has been sitting on the back of the turret all this time supject to untold abuses and damage prior to useage. I have no doubt that the Soviets would have attempted combat deep water fords, and I have no doubt that they would have taken hellacious casualties. I think that their theory was that even if only a few tanks got through, the surprise factor would permit them to establish a lodgement in the far bank and allow bridging systems to be brought up to complete the crossing. I bet there are more than a few former conscript tankers in the FSU who are glad that they never had to try. Mike Burk