Path: spln!rex!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.us.prserv.net!prserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!a5e31630!not-for-mail From: "N9NWO" <n9nwo@amsat.org> Newsgroups: alt.military,misc.survivalism Followup-To: alt.military, misc.survivalism, us.military.army References: <3G2c8.4156$S01.263294@sccrnsc02> <xZ6e8.2862$Vs2.1115@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> Subject: Re: Future Soldier Lines: 188 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <RAhe8.4668$Vs2.4508@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 02:47:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.41.243.227 X-Complaints-To: business-support@verizon.com X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1014605233 4.41.243.227 (Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:47:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:47:13 EST Xref: spln alt.military:33143 misc.survivalism:435413 It looks like the National Command Authority wants to jump over to the next generation of equipment, and soon. We really need to think about where we are heading and how to minimize the number of systems in order to mobilize quickly (war is more of an logistical exercise than it is about fighting). Lets look at some systems. Rifle Currently we are using the M16A2 and the M4 carbine. And we are seeing more units transition to the carbine daily. With urban warfare becoming on of the main focus of future warfare, the M4 makes more sense. One interesting point. FN now has a big contract to manufacture replacement M16A2 and M4 weapons. As well, they manufacture the M249 and M240B/G. FN tried to push the F90 PDW and failed. The 5.7 mm round had less power than the 5.56x45mm. Just too much of a jump. FN has recently produced the F2000 bullpup which has features of the F90 but fires the 5.56x45mm rounds. It is a systems approach to the weapon and has many OICW features, in fact they may have developed a good working product for the OICW project. Articles about the F2000 http://www.gunsworld.com/gun_ar/fn_f2000_us.htm http://www.ets-news.com/herstal.htm http://www.fnmfg.com/ http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/fwframeset.html One point that is being made in many articles is that the .22 caliber rounds may not be enough for fighting in urban environments. The Russians, after the Chechen problem, are rethinking the 5.45 mm round in favor of a 6mm round based on that cartridge. The Chinese already have moved to a 5.7x42 mm round based on the old 7.62x39mm round for their new bullpup. Even the FN F90 PDW was 5.7 mm but had too short a case to be effective. One suggestion was that we convert our 5.56x45 mm weapons to 6x45mm (based on a necked up version of the S109 round) with a 77gn steel core bullet. Thus all we would need to do is retrofit our weapons with a barrel change. Personal Defense Weapons Currently we have three weapons: the M9 and M11 in 9mm and the mk 23 in .45 ACP. Three different weapons with a totally separate part system and magazines. There have been comments that the Special Operations folks, especially the Navy, have been less than happy with the mk 23. By the time the silencer and other device are added, the weapon is nearly as big as an MP5. What comments I am hearing suggest that the Army and Marines are looking to have a complete change with respect to these systems. For one thing, a move to the .40 S&W round as it can perform like a .45 (subsonic) when loaded with a 180 gn bullet (under 800 ft/sec) yet has 9mm performance when loaded between 135 and 165 gn. (over 1300 ft/sec). This is one reason that a large majority of US police departments have switched to this round. And a simple barrel change allows usage of the .357 Sig round in the same gun. Our allies in Europe are also thinking going to this round as the 9mm is proving to be too light. What is being proposed is a three gun system. A main duty handgun, a compact version and a SMG. One of the main requirements is that the SMG and the compact be able to use the magazine from the duty gun. At the moment only Beretta and H&K have weapons in all three categories. And both companies make a handgun with safeties which Sig-Sauer, Walther, Glock and others do not (most have a decocking mechanism, not a safety). Duty gun barrel 4 to 5 inches, with threaded barrel for silencer. Compact barrel 3 to 4 inches All three weapons need to have a mounting rail to attach lights and other devices. H&K USP and UMP http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/umpframeset.html http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/civilian/uspframeset.html http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/civilian/uspframeset.html http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/civilian/uspCframeset.html Beretta http://www.berettausa.com/guns/pistols/92_96vertec/index.html http://www.beretta.com/from_usa_com.asp?section=ps&segment=difesa&Disc ipline=Medium%20size http://www.berettadefence.com/INGLESE/default_tabella_semiautomatiche. htm http://www.berettadefence.com/INGLESE/default_tabella_pistola_mitragli atrice_PM_12_S2.htm http://www.berettadefence.com/INGLESE/default_tabella_militari70_90.ht m Machine guns Currently we have the M249, the M240B/G and the mk 19 automatic grenade launcher. There are those who question whether we need a medium MG such as the M240 as the SAW does most of the light MG roles and the mk 19 is better at a heavy/medium role (mounted on tripod or vehicle). My guess is that we will hold onto the M240 for sometime but it does create a problem of more spare parts and ammo that has to be transported. http://www.fnmfg.com/ I also assume that we will keep the M2 .50 cal. in the system for awhile longer. Heavy weapons http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/index.html In urban warfare, as we have seen with the Chechen problem, the RPG-7 type weapon becomes a mobile artillery piece. Mortars may have use but have big limits. Most of the fighting is done too close for that type of support. We need to think about buying the Bofors 84mm recoilless rifle for use in regular rifle squads. http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/carlgustav.htm http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m3-maws.htm http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001armaments/burnhardt.pdf http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m3-maws.htm The Marines also use the SMAW but I think that the Bofors 84mm is a better system. We seem to have settled on the 60 mm and 120 mm mortars. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/indirect.htm It looks like artillery is centered around the 155mm and the 105mm. The Naval was talking about converting to the 155mm from the 5 inch gun (127mm) but have recently decided to upgrade to the 5 in/62 cal. guns for ships that have them. The real killer in logistics is the 20/25/30mm rounds for aircraft, ship defense and anti aircraft. Currently the 20mm is used by most aircraft and by the ship defense systems (Phalanx). The Army uses the 25mm Bushmaster on the Bradley. And the Navy has recently put Bushmaster 25mm guns on certain ships for defense against light water craft (see the Naval homepage and look at the LHA and such craft). The Harrier has used the 25mm, the A-10 used a 30 mm and the new JSF is scheduled to use a 27mm. What is needed is a common round for all these systems. http://www.periscope1.com/demo/weapons/artguns/cmbtveh/w0003600.html http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/index.html http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/index.html http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/index.html And of course the military across the board is looking at replacing systems just as the JSF is to replace the Harrier, F16, F18 and A10.